Wed 3 Sep, 2008
It never fails… something that in your mind should be soooo simple just turns into a big huge debate. Last night I was on just messing around. I’m working on my second druid lately because I’ve decided to have a feral and a Boomkin. I like the flexibility and I’m sick and tired of having 57 gear sets. But back to the rant at hand.
I’ve listen for over a year to people bitch at me about loot. God is it frustrating. There’s no winning the damned arguement. We’ve kept it simple for our Kara runs. Its very simple.. there’s 10 people in the instance. If you want a purple primary spec you can roll on it. Once you’ve won an epic everyone else who wants a piece primary spec gets first shot. So for instance if there are two warriors and Warrior A wins the first roll, he can’t roll on the next piece of Primary Warrior loot unless the other warrior doesn’t want it. All the loot is treated the same. So T4 tokens fall under the same rules. The only thing that falls out of the normal rules is things like pattern drops and stuff like that… that has to be specific to the people who are present and can use the pattern.
But my god… I’ve been listening to the same damned crap for a year.
Person A says, “we don’t need a better loot system… its only a 10 man.. anything else is just overkill.”
Person B says, “But I’ve been coming to Kara for over a 9 months and I keep losing my T4 helm to someone’s 2nd and third alt… when the hell am I going to get my T4 helm????”
Person C says, “LOOT GIMMEE!!!!!”
Its like the damned circus where I’m force to sit in the middle and listen to everyone bitch AT ME! Christ… get over it. Its the bad part about being a raid organizer. If you don’t make adjustments, people bitch at you because the current system is unfair to them… if you do make adjustments your putting someone else at a disadvantage… my god… I just realized… I’m in management… where’s my pay increase????
Its awefully late in the process to go changing systems now, but what I’m trying to do is set the stage for the expansion. Am I planning on burning to 80 and then starting raiding in three weeks? NO…. but!!!! But…. my goal is to ensure that whatever system we use, someone isn’t going to get screwed over and over and over again.
I HATE random rolls. Not because its unfair, but lets say this… it SUCKS. You are taking a random loot drop and then randomizing it again. At least with some sort of loot system you can be assured that you’ll get SOMETHING at some point. If for three months only one piece of DPS caster gear drops each week, you don’t have to feel like shit because you lost every damned roll for three friggin months.
We’ve all been there… someone new walks into Kara and in two damned weeks they better geared than the 9 damned months it took healer B to get there. Its just luck of the draw. I’ve been there on friggin shaman night so DAMNED many times it makes me sick.. Every damned piece… look a totem.. look enhancement shaman gear… look elemental shaman gear… look healer shaman gear… GOD DAMN IT THERE ARE NO MORE SHAMAn IN THE FRIGGIN RAID!!!!
Sorry its my own personal bitch, but why shouldn’t someone who’s there every damned week have first shot at a piece if it drops? Do I want to exclude newbies? No. Hell honestly they gear up faster than the people who were there for 9 months, but jesus… when that one elusive piece drops, the person who was there forever should get first shot at it. 99% of the time the newbies get all the damned stuff we were going to shard anyways if they weren’t there… so gearing up is quick and easy for them most of the time.
Plus no offense… but I agree with people who bitch about this… if I’m raiding on my main… I know I’m in a casual guild, but if I lose to someone’s third damned alt through Kara I get pissed. I’m not your personal gearing up machine. Yes I’ve done it too, but honestly I’ve been screwed by it myself at times and its frustrating. Honestly in the expansion I’m personally planning on NOT bringing in more than one or two characters to raid EVER. We have people with kara gear on 4-7 toons. That’s a bit excessive don’t you think????
Ok we return you to your regularly scheduled program…. I’ll go sit in the corner and figure out how to please everyone all the time… I’ll be back when I figure it out…. :p
Xtian says:
Our guild wanted to avoid that, because we have a few people with alts. So we say mains get dibs over alts if it comes to a point of conflict between the two. Most people see that as a reasonable rule, and it encourages people to show up with mains, which means more stable class balance, which is usually a good thing. I guess it’d be weirder for a larger guild with lots of alts running around, but maybe you can bring it up for lvl 80 raiding rules? Nothing wrong with dangling one’s feet in the water.
Starman says:
No… I guess I should explain that at least half the guild is altoholics. Hell I have 10 characters yself. At least 8 are above 20… 5 are at lvl 55+. So we tend to have a lot of people who have lots of characters. But its a good insight thanks for sharing it.
Nibuca says:
We ran into the same problem. We finally said that everyone had to declare one “main”. Loot in 70 instances goes as follows:
Purple drops. Loot master asks for rolls in the following order:
* On-spec Mains and invited alts (alts that were asked to bring that alt for this raid) who haven’t yet received a purple in that run.
* On-spec Alts who haven’t received a purple in that run.
* Off-spec mains and alts and armor downgrades who haven’t yet received a purple in that run.
* Anyone who wants the piece (even if they’ve already received a purple that run)
* Disenchant
Also, we roll for tier pieces before other community drops on the same boss.
Nibuca
http://chicanery.fibergeek.com/
Ginger says:
I like Nibuca’s.
This is largely what I was trying to write in the post that managed to be lost.
K4 says:
I told you star, er Alla in this case… Alphabetical loot rules, You win all loot, pass it to who you want.
ok yes i know the joke is getting old even to me.
Starman says:
Yeah thanks for sharing that Nibuca. We are looking at what you wrote in guild and may make a few tweaks. The largest issue I think we face is getting people to pick a main. In the land of altoholics its the one tooned man who leads so to speak :p
Ok not really but picking mains will be hard for some people… some people just want equal treatment regardless of what toon they are on.
Xtian says:
Has your leadership considered straight-up asking your members to consider passing if they are an alt and have run the content a lot? I bet you’d be able to craft a good post listing all the reasons for doing so, and as long as you emphasize that there will be no hidden stigma if someone chooses not to pass on certain loot, you can still ask folks to be mindful of “main” characters.
Starman says:
We’ve mentioned it. Its been kind of an understood rule for a while, but honestly that breaks down as soon as one person gets in there who won’t follow that general rule. Then everyone kind of reverts. Its kind of human nature. When we first started Kara there was a group of about 11 people who all knew what everyone was wearing and what the best upgrades each person needed. Now that we’ve progressed a year and a half we have probably about 24 people who come off and on and so many of the characters (probably over 60) are the alts of people’s mains. Its very challenging for anyone to know what everyone’s main is and what they should do about loot etc. Plus we don’t have a solid policy on it per se… so… that’s a big discussion we are having in guild now. Not necessarily looking to deal with it before the expansion comes out, but trying to ensure we know what we are going to do when the expansion comes out.
Nibuca says:
I’m glad you liked it. We’ve tweaked our guild rules -alot- in the name of fairness. Here’s a couple documents for you:
Main vs alt: http://www.groupsofwords.com/2008/08…n-main-vs-alt/
Guild rules: http://www.gamerdna.com/GuildThread.php?t=100635&f=75797
Our -actual- loot rules in all their glory:
http://www.gamerdna.com/GuildThread.php?t=100639&f=75797
(please ignore the formating, gamerdna is fscking with it’s setup and has totally messed up our forums)
Nibuca
http://chicanery.fibergeek.com/
GoW says:
I vote up Nibuca’s reply. In fact, I’m going to steal it and pass it on to my officers.
A player having any two toons geared at the same level means that your progression is not at that level. If your guild’s progression is supposed to be at that level, then you’re gearing up alts instead of progressing… which is great, but should be stated clearly by the leadership.
Rhad says:
I like Nibuca’s Raid Rules, but… Who gets first dibs in the following scenario: Main/invited alt that has already received an epic on the run vs an Alt that has not received an epic on that run.
I ask because my Main is done with Kara. She has better epics than kara offers and all the badge gear she needs. I have an alt that is close to that, but there is still a piece that drops off of the Prince that I’d like, and still some badge gear. I’m fine with considering my “alt” as an “alt” and take 2nd place to someone’s Main. I think that’s GOOD, in that I want our Guild to progress and if there is a Main toon that needs something, woot! The problem is, will I ever be able to get that last piece I need from the Prince? If Main toons get higher priority than Alts, EVEN WHEN the Main has already received an Epic, I never will get that last piece.
Now, maybe that isn’t a problem, but for smaller guilds, and even medium sized ones that are doing 25-man content, having some flexibility is NICE for a RL. Currently I can offer a T6 healy priest and a T5+ warlock. I’d like to offer my guild two T6 toons, so I can fill whatever spot is needed.
Starman says:
I’m all for offering up options, but the problem is that as you start saying, “I can offer up three flavors” it really starts to slow the raid down. Because now we aren’t waiting for you to gear up one, but rather three toons. The concept of Mains Vs. Alts might very well mean that you never get that final one piece you are looking for, but if you are bringing your alt, he might have to rely on badge gear to finish gearing up.
If you look at moving into Wrath of the Lich King, the main issue is that we’ll have a 10 man progression path. We won’t be stopped immediately after Naxx is done. So you need a mechanism so that people’s mains can progress up to the new “end game” content that people are working at regularly. Lets be honest… whether we admit it or not, ISCA is a raiding guild with a very casual feel. Between our alliance and in house stuff, 60-70% of the guild raids and has access to raids up to 6 days a week. That is a HELL of a lot of raiding.
Rhad says:
This is where (imo) a DKP / SK mix would work nicely. DKP, so if you’re a heavy raider, you move up the list quickly, but that if you take something, you suicide to the bottom. No more random rolls, no more questions about who has gotten what/when/where/how/which toon. Just a simple ranking. If you’ve been taking your Alt a lot (and the RL has been ok with it, ie your class is needed and your DPS is adequate), then that Alt will end up getting something. Same goes if you take your Main consistently.
Starman says:
Yep I agree with your point there. I’ve never been a fan of DKP, but a nice simple SK list keeps it moving in a similar direction.
Nibuca says:
In the name of fairness we have a “one purple per run” rule. So in the case mentioned (main with a purple vs alt w/o a purple) the item would by default go to the alt.
That kind of side-steps the point though. If you’re doing progression, and you’ve run it enough times that you’re now gearing alts.. then it’s not really progression. You’ve stalled.. and you’re actually on a farming run.
Ideally, the situation you mentioned would only come up when we’re taking undergeared toons (ie people who are new to the guild) through farm content. The new person is running their main through the content so that they can get the gear/badges in order to catch up with our progression runs. The “alt” is a secondary toon for a guildie. They’re running the alt through the farm content because their “real main” would gain nothing from running through that content. In that case, it’s actually in the best interest of the “alt” to yield the item to the “main”. This is up the the alt though.
We’re trying to keep it “fair” and reward everyone for going on a run.. not just to gear up undergeared newbies to the guild. So, as I said, in the name of fairness we have the one purple per run rule.. but on farm content we sometimes wiggle that rule in favor of the undergeared toons.
Case and point: on Monday we ran ZA and one of our healers is new to the guild. He was actually in mostly blues. He won 3 healing plate drops in ZA even though there was another player who could have picked up some of those drops. It was better for us that he get 3 purples. The players in the run agreed.. and although he did get ribbed for being a “loot whore” we all agreed that it was better for the guild to gear him up.
Ahh.. and on my last comment I messed up the link to Group of Word’s “Main vs Alt” article. It’s actually here: http://www.groupsofwords.com/2008/08/20/definition-main-vs-alt/
Thanks,
Nibuca
Rakhman says:
We also have a little of this; one player appeared to be taking an endless succession of alts through Karazhan, each time grabbing mucho loot from long-suffering mains. The conclusion was that the player was told they couldn’t take any more alts through and had to stick to their 3 main characters. Yes 3.
We are now making people nominate “mains” just for guild rank purposes. But in the expansion this will take on a different purpose if we decide to go for 10 man raid progression. I’ve passed on the loot rules linked in above comments to our raid leadership, I hope they appreciate them because they look pretty good.
Starman says:
Yes I for one and very appreciative for Nibuca sharing those rules. Its certainly something we are looking at internally too. Like I said we aren’t making any more changes in the existing system, but…. WotLK will be a whole new world. So I anticipate things will require a bit different approach than what we’ve been using.